Hasan Rahim: I just wanted to start with a few questions about your origins. Where are you from and how did you get to New York?
Cam Canty: I'm from Allen, Texas. It's a small town, like 30 minutes outside of Dallas. I moved to New York in 2018, two years after I graduated high school. In Allen I was working at Apple at the time and one of the things that I heard when I first got there was how supportive they are of people's lives outside of Apple and how common it is for people to literally transfer anywhere in the world, as long as it's an Apple store they'll get you there. So I had the crazy idea of going to New York. I really wanted to be closer to street wear and the brands that like and be around the leaders of that world.
I had that idea and was delusional enough to believe that it could. Like I’m going to move there and work with Supreme and Noah. So I cleared out my stock at Apple and moved with like $3k to my name and got a room, a shoebox room, from my friend which was like $1k a month and started trying to meet people.
HR: Were you already making graphics at this point? Can you remember what the first piece of design work you ever made was?
CC: The first one I made was at home back in Texas and it was like this crystal ball graphic. It literally was the first thing I made on Photoshop. I was trying out all these different tricks. I was so new to Photoshop, like Googling how to crop, how to move, how to use the transform feature, how to move the image…
HR: Like YouTube tutorials?
CC: Yeah exactly. So I made that graphic and printed it on some shirts, like less than 10 shirts I think and I started DMing it to all these people that I looked up to.
HR: What year was this?
CC: This was 2017.
HR: Was this the shirt that had a kind of pharmaceutical aesthetic?
CC: No that was the third one I that I made.
HR: Okay sick because that was the one that I saw when I first found you.
What even got you into design? Like what lured you into it? For me it was skateboarding, I grew up skateboarding. All my friends were kind of knuckleheads. It was keeping me outta trouble but I wasn’t extremely good at skating. All my friends were really into Baker, like Andrew Reynolds and all those dudes. They were skating like 20 stair handrails. I just wanted to skate flat and ledges essentially. But I remember just being more attracted to the art and the graphics and the music and the lifestyle and how these videos were made, how they were edited, how the magazines were designed, how the boards looked…you know. The athletic side of it. So I naturally got into graphics from skateboarding. But how did you get into it?
CC: I guess with an ode to Virgil it was being a tourist from the outside of the skate world. I always admired it and had a deep, deep appreciation for skate culture. The art that came out of it was huge inspiration. I had friends that skated and I was just obsessed with their style, the way they dressed, the shoes, the designs. I wanted to skate, but I also knew that I didn't have the heart to pick it up and get good. So I saw design as a way for me to infiltrate and for awhile it was just my way to see if I could earn the respect of people in that community.
That was just my world at the time, a lot of people in my neighborhood growing up skated. I saw it all and just wondered if I could making something as good as Supreme or FA, something that my friends would appreciate. So I guess yeah what really inspired me the most was Supreme, as cliche as that sounds. But nobody was making graphics like them, you know, and they really made it feel more accessible feeling. So many graphics were repurposed and re-contextualized preexisting images. It was very inviting to me as opposed to seeing something that is clearly illustrated.
HR: For sure like the art school guy that does super hand done graphics sets a really high barrier for entry, like a stylistic thing that you obviously can't achieve without the means. But with Supreme it was the vibe and the energy that made it. A lot of it, like you're saying, is referential to cultural moments. So everything ,in a lot of ways, with Supreme stuff is a reference. I thought that was cool because it felt like something we can all appreciate and relate to.
CC: Exactly.
HR: So in a lot of ways it was skateboarding for both of us.
CC: Yeah…but you were more involved than I was.
HR: But in ways it was the same thing. It wasn’t like I was thinking I would try to go pro. It was about the community, the lifestyle, and the good times that skateboarding brought us. But I think that Supreme is a really good reference. I didn't really have access to Supreme at the time, I was more so into like Girl and Chocolate. Supreme was maybe less of a skate company then. It was like really expensive. Mostly I knew it for being like huge in Japan, but we didn't have it anywhere around here. But it was definitely rad to go on the website and see Slick Rick videos or the Ray Quad and Ghost Face shit.
So another thing is that neither of us went to design school. Tell me about tutorials (laughs)
CC: YouTube, YouTube, YouTube (laughing)
HR: Tell me about trial and error (laughs)
CC: Oh my gosh. I'm still in it. But from the start I think the biggest challenge was learning the basics.You actually talked about this in another interview said something like when you’re first learning the tools that’s the struggle. Then eventually you get to a place where you learn them. Once you have learned them then the interesting part comes….like you said it's like using a hammer, you can use it for its literal purpose or you can use it to carve glass.
So really I took about a year of learning basics then was able to start experimenting with mixing them and seeing how I could achieve new textures and new things hidden behind the tools. Which led me to keep learning. Like how certain images just have their own characteristics and you’ll just naturally get a certain texture just from the image on its own. When I realized that I was able to start really leaning into that and making more things based off that realization. Just learning to work with what you got you know?
HR: Compositional harmony and stuff like that….So you now understand all these things the nuances of textures, juxtaposition of images, iconography, color theory, etc. But can you tell me more about that starting phase of trial and error? Like at what point did you get a understanding of all the tools and where did that put you?
CC: Maybe like early 2020 it started to click. I was just learning by reference at that point. Like trying to remake pre-existing graphics to figure out how they did it. I would try to not ask anyone for help or anything, I reached out to you once and you gave me some advice which I will always appreciate.
I was just super determined to figure it out just using Google and YouTube. So when I learned something new I would blend it with something I already knew to see what I could get out of it. Just messing with thresholds and stuff like that. That was a big way for me to continue teaching myself….like build a tool box of techniques and build from that.
HR: That's the best thing…like you see something and you're like, how did they achieve this? You see a texture or a technique and you're trying to figure it out. Because often the sort of high barrier entry stuff that as a computer first designer you aren't really working on. Like I'm not gonna draw the entire tiger, scan it, color it, etc…..you know not like a “traditional artist”, but instead you’re teaching yourself through trial and error. That process showed me that a lot of this stuff is totally achievable in computer. You know like, combining different grains, gradient maps, all those things kind of add up. Eventually you can make things that don’t look like they were created by a computer. You know?
CC: Totally…I always tell my friends Photoshop is like a universe. You can constantly be exploring and there's always different techniques, which in a way you could equate to life in general. The updates feel so minor but maybe two years you notice something and it becomes something you’re using on a regular basis.
HR: Exactly. I mean I still learning so much. I watch these kids on TikTok doing tutorials now and I find things I have missing this whole time. Which makes me think about this process for you and how you kind of design by learning, in ways creating your own tutorials.
It reminds me of this quote from Ira Glass:
“ Nobody tells this to people who are beginners. And I really wish somebody had told this to me, all of us who do creative work, who get into it because we have good taste. There is this gap for the first couple years that you're making stuff. What you're making isn't so good. It's not that great. It's trying to be good. It has ambition to be good, but it's not that good. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game is still killer. And your taste is good enough that you can tell that what you're making is kind of a disappointment to you. So a lot of people never get past that phase and they quit.
….
Everybody I know who does interesting creative work went through years where they had really good taste and they could tell that what they were making wasn't as good as what they wanted it to be. They knew it fell short and everybody goes through that. If you're just starting out or you're still in this space, you gotta know it's normal. The most important thing you can do is do a lot of work, do a huge volume of work, put yourself on a deadline so that every week or every month, you know you're going to finish one piece or one story. It’s only by going through a volume of work that you’ll be able to catch up and close that gap. And the work you're making will be as good as your ambitions. I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It takes a while. It's gonna take you a while. It's normal to take a while. You just have to fight your way through that.”
Growing up on the internet I was exposed to so much shit. I came in just a little bit before Tumblr and we were using FFFFOUND, which later on my buddy Justin named JJJJOUND after. Then came Tumblr and MySpace, which I was using a lot. Just being bombarded with references. I was really drawn towards watching Palm Pictures, Chris Cunningham and Spike Jones dvd’s, Girl and Chocolate videos, that kind of thing when I was like 15. These things really inspired me and made we want to make things of that nature.
At that time I think I was actually making pretty good work but then I had to get a job. I worked at a magazine and a street wear brand, which actually made my gap grow bigger. I wasn’t able to be insular and discover my thing. So eventually my gap closed at like 29.
That process showed me how much I hated corporate politics, which made me lean into my art practice over my design practice. That closed the gap for me.
I’m really curious about your gap, where you’re at and how you’re feeling about the process you’ve been making.
CC: I appreciate you sharing that, because from the outside I would have assumed you’ve had this level of success forever. I think we need to hear things like this to really understand what “success” takes.
For me currently I see my gap in type. I just didn’t like putting type in my work. It felt like I had to make fake context for images….it just felt so corny. So I have been focused on treatments and collage, the things that originally inspired me to get into design. It feels like there are designers that are good at one or the other.
I want to get good enough at it that it compliments my work. I don’t feel the need to become a master like Eric Who or something, but I want it to be good enough to compliment my graphics and treatments properly. I realized that just having good photo treatments and graphics is like having a good beat with no vocals.
HR: Right you want to give them the full song.
CC: Exactly.
HR: I hear you. I will say that I think image making is crucial when it comes to world building. Sometimes designers who are very focused purely design can miss that. But at the same time you see people who aren’t so good at it bringing in type and it devalues the image. So I guess honing both skills parallel is important, but so hard.
You know too type is just words. You need to have good words to work with….you can’t just throw any rapper on your beat. I go in and out with type sometimes I really feel like we don’t need it at all…but….
CC: Your choice of font just works though. So I think that saves you, or anyone. People don’t care if you spent hours creating it illustrator if it looks good.
HR: No one cares how long it took. I gotta say I’ve seen people do amazing work and it looks like it's incredible. But then I go in and notice things like it’s not symmetrical. I see these things and can be impressed but to a non-designer it might just look busy.
I think iconography is really what I try to be good at, that's the focus I really want. The idea of being iconic or not being able to pinpoint when it’s from. That’s why I use certain typefaces because they’re classics. I don’t use all that new shit that just dropped. I want this to feel like forever not 2020 specific.
CC: Exactly. I mean you can’t go wrong with something like Old English, like Old English is always going to be that bitch, I don’t care. Old English will always elevate a hard ass graphic.
HR: It will, but I’ve seen people fucking abuse that.
(Both laugh)
I personally won’t use it anymore….oh actually I use it sometimes. I just used for this Kendrick live thing. Like some Vegas thing. There’s some Old English in there.
CC: Yeah I saw that that was sick.
HR: Thanks yeah I pulled it out the bag for that one. I took it mostly off my site I just use the compact bold one now. But can you tell me more about what you’re trying to convey with your work?
CC: If you had asked me a few months ago when I was working on that series of images that look like they were scanned in I would tell you that I really wanna recreate that feeling of ephemeral , like things that have a little bit more of a story to it. That series that I was working on were these things that looked like items you would find in a vintage shop or your grandmother's basement. I added some illustration and graffiti to add to that story, like maybe you found it after someone had added to the original image.
But I hit a point where I could’t expand on that idea the way I wanted to. Now I just want to create work that has something for everybody. I want to show people that I can do that too.
I think about Tyler the Creator or Kendrick, artists that are always challenging themselves within their genre…trying to expand what it means to be a “rapper.” Like Kendrick has said he wants to be able to make an album that’s jazz or funk inspired or a classic hiphop album…now I think he’s working on a rock album…I love that. I like the idea of being able to make a whimsical playful graphic and turn around and make something hard as fuck. I want different types of artists to see themselves in my work.
HR: You want range. You don't want to be in a box. You want to be able to be versatile. You want people to see something and know it's yours. But it doesn't have to be a graphic. It doesn't have to be because of the colors. It doesn't have to be because of the certain type you’re using or the hand style. You want that authorship so when people see your work they know Cam made it. Just like how you hear a Pharrell beat, regardless of what he is using, you know it’s his.
Peter Seville is probably one of the legends when it comes to that for me. I want to be Bo Jackson. I wanna play all the sports, I wanna be a triathlete. I don't want to just do the fucking 5k or whatever I want to do all this shit. I want to be a Navy seal, you know. I’ve had the chance to direct film a bit on top of the graphic and type work…as you sharpen all your skills it kind of unifies into this sort of global vision for your work and how your create in general.
So I agree that range and versatility is more important than being locked into a specific style. I mean yes, people who do lock themselves in probably are more successful because it’s easy to digest clients understand it.
But it’s like what’s that meme…?
(Laughs) That’s what I really gotta do. That’s kind of like my M.O. I want people constantly being surprised by what I make. I guess that’s a goal for both of us. You don’t really know what the next thing could be, but you’re going to figure it out and it’s gonna be yours.
CC: Exactly, exactly. Is there anything that you think someone would find surprising that is inspiring you right now that comes from outside of design?
HR: I don’t know if it would surprise anyone to hear this but I listen to a lot of music, I have my NTS show and I work within music a lot. But I don't listen to music when I'm making work anymore. I listen to like brain FM, which is just this ambient sort of focused science backed sound frequencies that are helpful for your creativity or focus or to just like accomplish a task. I really just try to make it more meditative. I try to get into this flow state where I'm not dependent on anything. I just have my bottle of water and Brain FM, or silence, and I try to just put myself in a vacuum.
It really forces you to look at your own thoughts. Just like opening a blank file 14 x 14. No mood board or direction or references. It’s a really interesting exercise. Another interesting exercise is just making a folder with 10 images you like and make a collage with them, no preset ideas.
That's been more inspiring to me because you start to realize your own idiosyncrasies as a person. There was a moment where I realized I was using hands in like everything. So now I’m like, oh hands are important. What does that mean? Let me talk to my therapist about that (laughs) But you, you start to catch onto these things that…you know…umm
CC: That have some sort of subconscious meaning?
HR: Yeah or even it dosent have a meaning you’re learning more about yourself. That’s been really inspiring for me. Another thing too, not so surprising, but I like to go for a drive. If I have a creative block I’ll just go for a drive and play music, it’s like a think tank for me. It might not be a specific creative ideation but more so higher level conceptual thought. Connecting things together and having epiphanies. That’s kind of been my inspo currently.
How about you?
CC: Those who know me would say it’s not a surprise but photography and music…I’m really inspired by artist creative journey. Just any artist that is constantly pushing themselves. Like people wanting to reinvent themselves and being okay with people not accepting it. For example Yeezus is my favorite Kanye album, because of the time it came out and that he just stayed true to himself artistically and how he felt in that moment.
So that mentality really inspires me. Like I know this series is working. I’m getting more follower, engagement etc. but I need to do something that challenges me.
There’s such a thin line between good and bad photography or design. Like something might look good just because of the textures in it you know?
HR: Yeah yeah
CC: Is there any pieces of art that you wish you created?
HR: It’s funny because I used to think like that a lot. But I realized it was much healthier for me to not think like that anymore. I also had moments of getting sucked into Instagram like you said and when you’re at a low point comparison is the devil…and getting sucked into the algorithm really shows that. I had to remind myself that I was looking at the highlight reel.
2018 was a particularly hard year, mainly due to personal stuff, but with work I was really burnt out and I hadn’t adapted the skill of saying “no” yet. So with that I really had to shift my thinking away from comparison. Instead being able to feel happy for the other person and keep pushing for myself. For awhile I couldn’t even look at other work (laughs), but now I can and genuinely be happy for people. I’m more confident with where I’m at.
But with that aside what do I really wish I made….
CC: It can even be like a childhood thing. Like you posted your favorite album cover the other day I assuming that would be your answer (laughs)
HR: I mean the Cybertron clear is perfect. But I don’t think I have the desire to have created it, I just want to like buy it and put it on my wall. Even with that there’s like this hint of jealously which is something I really had to work past.
I guess it would have to be stuff that is by hand. Like painting or airbrush work, I wish I could bring that into my stuff. Like and amazing airbrush artist is Pater Sato, a Japanese airbrush artist, he has a really amazing book with Parco.
CC: Oh yeah its hot…not other way to describe than sexy.
HR: Shit I’m trying to find this fucking book….can you hear me?….I have this Japanese airbrush book….I’m not gonna find it.
I wish I could do that stuff. If I was able to it would bring this whole other level of photo realism to my shit. I also would love to be doing motion. The gap for that is pretty big….I mean I could take a couple nice weekends and learn…but like your boys 35 you know (laughs) I’m gonna have to get really shitty before I get good (laughs.)
CC: (Laughs) Whenever I think about exploring new mediums I gotta decipher how much time it’s gonna take and if you have that in you. Like I love music but not enough to start learn how to write songs.
HR: Yeah I’m not gonna go buy a synthesizer. You gotta get that 10,000 hours. That’s really what it comes down to. Damn! Okay! Jack Goldstein! I wish I made the paintings he made. They were so surreal and psychedelic. A lot of them had this crazy element of the sky, like aerial phenomena, space and thermal looking nebulas. I think they have one at LACMA….wait no it’s at the Broad now I guess it’s Eli Broad’s painting he took it with him (laughs.)
I just texted it to you.
CC: Oh yeah this is crazy.
HR: When you zoom in you'll realize it's all poster. It looks like it's all gradient and blended, but it's not, every layer is a different color. It's a different shade of blue into blue, darker blue into purple, into darker purple into black. It's super sick it's fire. It's like topographic, I guess is the word. But Jack Goldstein paintings are something I wish I could do. You know, It feels like graphic. It's not painterly in the sense of the word. I'm really attracted to that.
How about you?
CC: For me it’s Sampha’s Timmy’s Prayer single cover. That shit is fucking perfect. Just that little laser beam in the middle. I love when people kill simplicity. I love that shit.
HR: I see it now. This is actually a really nice cover. That little nuance.You’re like, what is this detail? Is this, is that supposed to be there? What is that line? Why is it glowing? What does it mean? It presents all these questions that you don't necessarily have the answer to. It actually makes you use your imagination, you know? That's what the best work does. It genuinely pulls you in and makes you use your imagination as to why everything is what it is. I think the work that we were talking about earlier, where it's very busy, it looks like it took forever. A lot of that work doesn't really do that. It also leaves less to the imagination when it's so cool and dense and full of different details. But this is a great example of simplicity. I like that this is the one thing you wish you made.
CC: It’s so fucking good. For you how do you overcome fighting and internalizing perfectionism?
HR: Brooooo (both laugh) You know what? I’m still doing that.
I have to let go.
I had to be more pragmatic. I think that I started giving myself these standards, this bar, the bar kept getting higher. So you couldn’t actually track your own progress because you just keep raising the bar on yourself. Like I said in like 2018, it was really hard. I kind of got burnt out. I was dealing with like severe burnouts, because of the amount of pressure I would put on myself for every little thing. Like every decision had to have a reason and that's also like some sort of neurosis, ADHD, OCD shit. Like why would I use red? What's the theory? And I found myself overthinking over conceptualizing. So all my work has that layer to it though. But eventually I was like ok you’re allowed to just use fucking red dude.
So I don't gotta conceptualize using red. I wouldn't just run a black and white photo, people think I just invert pictures. That’s not it. They’re solarized so if you invert it back, it's not really the same picture. It's still got some inversions in it. They're just hidden things that didn't matter, really. There's a certain pragmatism that comes with realizing that you are making design and not art….professionally speaking…I think all work is personal work and I always say that. But at the end of the day, when you're working for others and you're not making it for yourself, those details gotta go.
Like I noticed it’s nice to leave easter eggs in stuff…there’s ones in the art works for NIN, and Manson, and Jaques Green. But it got to a point where that stuff was holding me back from delivering. So I have to get a head of myself and if I’m not, because I can procrastinate so much, I gotta let myself get out of the way so I’m not effecting their rollouts or stunting my own growth.
CC: Yeah so insane dude. I feel like that’s what's kept me from being more prolific. That’s my biggest goal this year, I wanna become a more prolific artist and just get shit out. Since the majority of my work is personal it's easier for me to spend too much time on it.
HR: I have a good friend named Alan You that did this experiment every day for two years he made a poster. It could have been scribbles, it could have type anything, but he'd make a poster every day. After the two years you could see how much better his work had become.
But it's about giving yourself that volume like forcing yourself to create through volume, as Ira Glass said “ through volume you're able to, to figure it out.” You'll let go of being a perfectionist because you're gonna enter what I call the flow state. Everything is just gonna be like when Neo eventually realizes that he's the one, you know, you're like blocking bullets, and you're not even thinking about it. It's just second nature. All those little details, all those refinements and things you overthink will just happen, it’s just second nature.
It’s funny Bill Gate’s had this TED talk and in it he said “if you ever want to find the most efficient way as a business owner to get some, a specific thing done, hire the late person.” That’s kinda me. Like for the 8 hour day, I’ll fuck off for 7, and in the last hour I’ll do everything. I’ll figure it out and be like “shit I just did 8 hours of work in an hour.”
CC: Yeah I get that. Something I was thinking about too is that like the biggest loss that a lot of self-taught designers lose from not going to school is community. Having likeminded people that are also on the same journey as you. People you confide in and, you encourage each other. Cause a lot of my friends don't design and like the ones that do design that's their life…so they don't want to talk about it when they're not working on shit. So having these conversations are really important…like seeing through it all and feeling solidarity in the fact that no matter what stage you’re at you’re going through the same shit to an extent.
HR: Totally. I mean, dude. Toms Sachs was doing some interview on you YouTube…they asked him what advice do you have for young artists? And he was like “be good at what you’re doing.” He had gotten fired from a construction job of some sort and had to take a job as a janitor. While he was there he realized he can either spend eight hours resenting it or make that place shine. Eventually that same place bought sculptures from him.
I think this was important to me when I see myself getting stuck on all these little things. Also for young people I have come and intern something to pay attention to. Like a lot of them don’t want to clean up Dropbox files, or pick up paper, or make tech packs they just want to be a creative director with no work put it. Like we all were the janitor at one point.
CC: Damn that’s a good one to end on. But I do have one more for you.
HR: I have one more too…but you go first. (Laughs)
CC: When you leave this planet and go where everyone else goes, wherever that is, what would you ultimately like to be remembered as as an artist?
HR: I don't want to be remembered as an artist. I want to be remembered as a human. The sort of illustrious obituary….I don't really care. I want to be remembered by all the people that knew me as a person and knew that I had their back and that I was there for them and by how much I might have touched them or inspired them or helped them figure things out and supported them. Like the work shit I don’t really care it dosent matter that shit don’t go to the grave with you.
CC: That reminded me of Virgil. I didn't realize how how kind of a person this man was until he died. His kindness overshadowed his work. Ultimately that's what mattered more, or just as much, as his creative legacy.
HR: He was always the good guy. All respect to Virgil. He touched a lot of people. Like one text from this guy was all you needed. He started an unimaginable amount of brands or companies or projects just based off those motivational words. Like even with that you would hear people saying like “how much stuff did he design.” That was always a conversation. He responded to that in one of his lectures he's like “People say that I'm not a designer, like rather than answer that question, hold that question and ask yourself what is a design? What does that mean? Like, how am I not a designer?” And I think that he questioned…
CC: Everything.
HR: Everything. Its very fucking clear what his role was now that he's gone unfortunately, he had the brain an absolute enigma. But I think that more importantly he was a motivator and a good guy. It’s so nice that you thought of him when I said that as a response. I hope that’s how I can be remembered with respect from the people that really knew me. What about you?
CC: Ultimately to inspire people that look like me and that are also part of the LGBTQ community, Black Queer people especially, maybe I can help make them feel comfortable and confident in these industries. But yeah, honestly just inspire people to create good things, regardless of where they're from.